[05/08/2003 12:29] <mitchell> It looks like 12:30 to me, so that makes it time for the Status Update chat.  
[05/08/2003 12:29] <mitchell> The notice for this was very late, so I suspect we'll be a small group.
[05/08/2003 12:30] <mitchell> If you're here for this chat, please say hello so I know I'm not talking to myself
[05/08/2003 12:30] <morgen> hello!
[05/08/2003 12:30] <cras> hello
[05/08/2003 12:30] <luther> hello
[05/08/2003 12:30] <dux> hello!
[05/08/2003 12:30] <rys_> hello
[05/08/2003 12:30] <sprout> hello 
[05/08/2003 12:31] <mitchell> all right, I small group, a good way to get started
[05/08/2003 12:31] <mitchell> I'd like to ask what people think of the updates.  Those at OSAF, could I do more?
[05/08/2003 12:31] <mitchell> those not at OSAF, are the Updates helpful?
[05/08/2003 12:32] <sprout> the update was helpful to me, otherwise I wouldn't be here. 
[05/08/2003 12:32] <luther> I think so. It's how I found the chat server.
[05/08/2003 12:32] <mitchell> have you read the other updates?
[05/08/2003 12:32] <dux> I'm not sure there's a whole lot more you could do.
[05/08/2003 12:32] <luther> Yes.
[05/08/2003 12:32] <sprout> did the update go to the mailing lists?  I didn't see it there. 
[05/08/2003 12:32] <mitchell> I'm trying to find some way to get info about what we're doing distributed
[05/08/2003 12:32] <rys_> i haven't seen the most recent status update; i'm delinquent. 
[05/08/2003 12:32] <dux> Oh, btw, dux, mitchell, morgen, Pieter, rys_, jurgen, Empty are all OSAF
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[05/08/2003 12:33] <mitchell> sprout:  I was late in posting to the mailing list; it's there now
[05/08/2003 12:33] <sprout> have you considered an OSAF RSS feed? 
[05/08/2003 12:33] <mitchell> hi jeffmace
[05/08/2003 12:33] <luther> RSS feed's a good idea.
[05/08/2003 12:33] <Pieter>   hello
[05/08/2003 12:33] <kasplat> it is good to get the updates, most of the email on the design list is background material, but the updates are about real items
[05/08/2003 12:33] <mitchell> you know, I haven't thought about RSS.  Do you think the content of the updates could just be truned into RSS feeds
[05/08/2003 12:34] <mitchell> kersplat:  glad to hear it.  I'd like to get more info in them
[05/08/2003 12:34] <luther> I was just checking to see if a particular wiki branch can be turned into rss.
[05/08/2003 12:34] <sprout> there ought to be.  Some of the early adopters you want to reach are rss savvy 
[05/08/2003 12:34] <dux> Mitchell -- Mitch's blog is RSS'd, so if Mitch mentions the updates on his blog, the word will spread.
[05/08/2003 12:34] <mitchell> ah, the quick fix.
[05/08/2003 12:34] <dux>   the best kind  
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[05/08/2003 12:35] <mitchell> luther:  that would be great.  let me know wht you find
[05/08/2003 12:35] <sprout> I think it would be good to have an OSAF group blog. 
[05/08/2003 12:35] <jurgen> hmm... I'll look into the Twiki -> RSS idea
[05/08/2003 12:35] <mitchell> osaf_pieter :  now that's clever
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[05/08/2003 12:35] <sprout> the c2 wiki can post all of its changes to RSS. 
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[05/08/2003 12:35] *** dux is now known as osaf_ducky
[05/08/2003 12:35] <jurgen> that might be feasible if someone has already coded it for twiki
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[05/08/2003 12:35] <sprout> and since chandler is already RSS enabled... 
[05/08/2003 12:35] <osaf_mitchell> sprout:  yes, we realize almost daily that Chandler would solve all our problems
[05/08/2003 12:36] *** index Help not found 
[05/08/2003 12:36] <osaf_mitchell> if only it were just done today, developing it would be so much easier!
[05/08/2003 12:36] <morgen> As a test I started a blog for chandler developer news, which announces changes to the build system:  (Link: http://blogs.osafoundation.org/devnews/)http://blogs.osafoundation.org/devnews/ -- it's RSS compatible
[05/08/2003 12:36] *** morgen is now known as osaf_morgen
[05/08/2003 12:36] <osaf_mitchell> OK, we'll look into RSS feeds for the updates.
[05/08/2003 12:36] <osaf_ducky> mitchell, Chandler *is* already RSS enabled -- that's what ZaoBao is
[05/08/2003 12:37] <osaf_mitchell> osaf_ducky:  I'm not that out of it   but realistically, we're not all living out of chandler yet
[05/08/2003 12:37] <kasplat> the biggest problem i have is knowing where and when to look for info. the wiki is huge and deep and you can drown there
[05/08/2003 12:37] <kasplat> there is almost no activity on the osaf-dev mailing list
[05/08/2003 12:37] <osaf_mitchell> Yes, I find the wiki daunting as well.
[05/08/2003 12:37] <kasplat> so my defensive mechanism has just been to sit back and wait
[05/08/2003 12:38] <sprout> the lack of traffic on osaf-dev is a major problem. 
[05/08/2003 12:38] <osaf_mitchell> But the same thing is true of the other project with which I work --  (Link: www.www.mozilla.org)www.mozilla.org is a mess
[05/08/2003 12:38] <osaf_pieter> kasplat, what types of info are you looking for on the wiki? would different topics or organization be more helpful?
[05/08/2003 12:39] <osaf_mitchell> So, back to the wiki for a moment.  Any ideas on what we could do to make things better?
[05/08/2003 12:39] <kasplat> well today i was looking for a summary of the storage decisions around ZODB
[05/08/2003 12:39] <jeffmace> i find the 'changes' feature of the wiki extremely useful
[05/08/2003 12:39] <luther> I think there may be something for rss/twiki. Look at TWikiSyndication at (Link: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiSyndication)http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiSyndication
[05/08/2003 12:39] <sprout> I think that the wiki is part of the problem 
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[05/08/2003 12:39] <kasplat> in particular the answer to the access to chandler data store from other languages
[05/08/2003 12:39] <sprout> it's hard to have a discussion about issues on the wiki.  Its easy to post what the issues are there, but hard to talk about it. 
[05/08/2003 12:39] <kasplat> but that discussion is off topic for this chat
[05/08/2003 12:40] <osaf_mitchell> kersplat:  that's true techniclly, it wasn't in the Update
[05/08/2003 12:40] <osaf_mitchell> I'd like to talk about it though.
[05/08/2003 12:40] <sprout> i think it would be good if some of the discussions between osaf developers could take place in osaf-dev 
[05/08/2003 12:40] <osaf_mitchell> Kersplat:  is there an  on topic issue you'd like to discuss first?
[05/08/2003 12:40] <kasplat> do you have an internal mailing list that us outside doofs just don't see?
[05/08/2003 12:40] <osaf_mitchell> sprout:  you are *so* right.  
[05/08/2003 12:41] <sprout> visibility into the process -- even the ugly parts is important if you want people to get involved 
[05/08/2003 12:41] <jurgen> sprout: it's hard to do a lot of this via email...
[05/08/2003 12:41] <osaf_mitchell> but I'm also hoping that they will occur here in #chandler
[05/08/2003 12:41] <sprout> we've had a lot of experience with this at the ASF 
[05/08/2003 12:41] <sprout> I know that it is hard to do in e-mail.   
[05/08/2003 12:41] <osaf_mitchell> sprout:  can you say more?
[05/08/2003 12:41] <sprout> I was part of the IBM team that worked on XML4J before it became Xerces 
[05/08/2003 12:41] <kasplat> i want to know about OSAF at OSCON
[05/08/2003 12:41] <osaf_morgen> sprout:  good point about using dev list more
[05/08/2003 12:41] <kasplat> btw, kasplat is Kevin Altis, Python 11 co-chair 
[05/08/2003 12:42] <osaf_mitchell> kasplat:  Mitch will do a keynote.
[05/08/2003 12:42] <sprout> part of the problem we had getting new developers was that they didn't have visibility into the process 
[05/08/2003 12:42] <osaf_mitchell> I'm talking with O'Reilly to see if these is a good time for a chandler presentation
[05/08/2003 12:42] <jurgen> phil: op osaf_mitchell
[05/08/2003 12:42] *** Mode change "+o osaf_mitchell" for channel #chandler by phil
[05/08/2003 12:42] <sprout> so it was hard for them to figure out how they could help or what the issues were.  There were too many hallway discussions that made it hard for "outsiders" to participate. 
[05/08/2003 12:43] <osaf_mitchell> kasplat: we haven't yet figured out who will go; it depends a bit on whether there is a presentation
[05/08/2003 12:43] <sprout> I want to know about OSAF at OSCON too.  It may be the deciding factor for me whether I go or not. 
[05/08/2003 12:43] <osaf_mitchell> but i'm pretty sure Andy Hertzfeld will go.
[05/08/2003 12:43] <kasplat> mitchell: so you aren't planning on an OSAF event with OSAF developers attending OSCON at this time?
[05/08/2003 12:43] <osaf_mitchell> I could plan a BOF or something with at least the 2 of them.  And other OSAFers could participant if they go.
[05/08/2003 12:44] <osaf_mitchell> kasplat:  we're in the planning process.  No final decisions yet.  Mostly because we are behind
[05/08/2003 12:44] <Empty_osaf> brief glance at internal mailing list for this week, lots of traffic about who's working from home, hiring and other internal matters, and about four messages that really should have been sent to dev
[05/08/2003 12:44] <osaf_mitchell> between the 0.1 release and the work on higher education, our OSCON plans are just forming now
[05/08/2003 12:44] <kasplat> i have suggested that we do "open spaces" at OSCON, basically BOFs but they can occur during the day rather than in the evening
[05/08/2003 12:45] <osaf_mitchell> sprout:  I think it's hard to move hallway discussions to a mailing list; the timing and dynamics are different.
[05/08/2003 12:45] <osaf_mitchell> But I'm hoping that the use of IRC can supplant the hallway discsussions
[05/08/2003 12:45] <osaf_mitchell> have you had experience here?
[05/08/2003 12:45] <sprout> believe me I understand.  But we need to find ways to increase visibility for people. 
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[05/08/2003 12:46] <sprout> we do have people doing irc -- and then posting the logs to the dev list. 
[05/08/2003 12:46] <sprout> you have to force yourself to think about how to keep the people who aren't there in the loop. 
[05/08/2003 12:46] <kasplat> just having the logs go to some place that is indexed and searchable is probably good enough
[05/08/2003 12:46] <sprout> Unfortunately, our tools for doiing this suck. 
[05/08/2003 12:46] <osaf_ducky> kasplat, osaf_mitchell, I *have* seen a lot of "hallway" chatter on #chandler.  Not all of it is useful -- yesterday, for example, I was fooling around by parroting the Spanish that my Spanish-language-learning -tapes were saying -- but there is genuine discussion here
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[05/08/2003 12:47] <sprout> one other thing that can be helpful is to have a mailing list where the cvs commits go 
[05/08/2003 12:47] <jurgen> I don't have logs for IRC yet... phil can do it, but he needs some work... next week.
[05/08/2003 12:47] <Empty_osaf> maybe we should have a "work at home" week, nobody is allowed to come into the office, or access any internal to osaf data.
[05/08/2003 12:47] <osaf_mitchell> yes, I like the "no access" to anythign internal idea
[05/08/2003 12:47] <osaf_ducky> (note to the world, phil is a robot)
[05/08/2003 12:47] <sprout> a work at home week would give you a feel for some of the challenges that the rest of us have 
[05/08/2003 12:47] <osaf_mitchell> we did osmething like this at mozilla
[05/08/2003 12:47] <osaf_mitchell> took all the internal mailing lists at Netscaped and gave them long, hard to remember names
[05/08/2003 12:47] <jonathanOSAF> hi folks..
[05/08/2003 12:47] <osaf_mitchell> used the easy names for public lists
[05/08/2003 12:48] <osaf_ducky> Hi jonathan
[05/08/2003 12:48] <osaf_mitchell> hi jonathan.  welcome
[05/08/2003 12:48] <jonathanOSAF> I just found you, but it wasn't easy (my first IRC Chat)
[05/08/2003 12:48] <sprout> personally, I haven't said much because I have had to much to do at my day job.  But I'm very interested. 
[05/08/2003 12:48] <osaf_mitchell> kasplat:  the open spaces idea sounds good.  Any idea if it will happen?
[05/08/2003 12:48] <Empty_osaf> long names like "internal_to_netscape_i_promise_developers_dont_need_this_info@netscape.com" ?
[05/08/2003 12:49] <osaf_mitchell> and even if not, you've made me realize I should plan a BOF.  Andy and Mitch are a powerful combo
[05/08/2003 12:49] <osaf_mitchell> empty:  pretty close 
[05/08/2003 12:50] <kasplat> unless there are simply no rooms, open spaces can happen at OSCON. it would be possible to make something happen across the street if there is a space crunch, but that would be offsite, so bad
[05/08/2003 12:50] <sprout> a suggestion:  if there are open dev issues that you want feedback on, try sending one e-mail per topic to dev and see if you can get some discussion started there.  
[05/08/2003 12:50] <kasplat> i will drive the issue on the OSCON mailing list and report back. it was one of the best parts of PyCon so i really want it to happen at OSCON. evening BOFs suck, everyone is burned out and just want to eat, drink, and socialize
[05/08/2003 12:51] <sprout> If I go to OSCON, you can have it in my room    
[05/08/2003 12:51] <osaf_mitchell> kasplat:  sounds good.  In the meantime I'll prime Andy and Mitch.  Chances are high I'll be there too.
[05/08/2003 12:52] <jonathanOSAF> what about a Bay Area BOF Mitchell -- I didn't see anyone signed-up yet
[05/08/2003 12:52] <osaf_mitchell> sprout:  I suppose we could also point people to the wiki page with relevant info, if ther is one
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[05/08/2003 12:52] <osaf_mitchell> jonathanOSAF:  well, the post to the mailing list just went this morning, so let's give it a couple of days
[05/08/2003 12:52] <sprout> yes, but if you want discussion I think you want that to happen in mail. 
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[05/08/2003 12:53] <osaf_mitchell> sprout:  right.  It's funny.  When we started, people realy wanted a BOF as a collaborative tool. 
[05/08/2003 12:53] <osaf_mitchell> but the formality has its drawbacks.
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[05/08/2003 12:54] <osaf_mitchell> Does anyone, especially those not at OSAF, have ideas where there has been so little feedback on the 0.1 docs?
[05/08/2003 12:54] <sprout> at the ASF, we lived on mailing lists until only recently when we started  a Wiki.   We're still learning how to best  use the Wiki but our culture is mostly mailing list based. 
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[05/08/2003 12:54] <osaf_mitchell> We expeceted some reaction to the roadmap and architecture docs.  Even bad beedback, but something
[05/08/2003 12:54] <osaf_mitchell> sprout:  what hae you found the wiki most useful for so far?
[05/08/2003 12:55] <jonathanOSAF> mitchell: maybe since 0.1 was advertised as not doing too much, people are waiting for a subsequent version before they dig in
[05/08/2003 12:55] <sprout> the wiki is good for summarizing stuff that has been beaten about in the mailing lists -- even as intermediate steps toward a solution.   
[05/08/2003 12:56] <kasplat> jonathanOSAF: yep on waiting
[05/08/2003 12:56] <osaf_rys> is cross posting wiki content toa mailing list useful? (i was doing that often)
[05/08/2003 12:56] <sprout> we discuss on the mailing list, put a strawman up on the wiki, mail some more, fix the wiki. 
[05/08/2003 12:56] <osaf_mitchell> OK, that's what we've been thinking about how to use  the wiki
[05/08/2003 12:56] <sprout> rys: I think that posting wiki content to mail is a good way to start dicussion. 
[05/08/2003 12:56] <jonathanOSAF> I agree about cross-posting wiki material
[05/08/2003 12:56] <sprout> in the storage case, it's just that there aren't that many people who can keep up with you.   I'd try, but I dont' know much about ZODB. 
[05/08/2003 12:57] <luther> mitchell: I think folks realize that the current docs are a work in progress. If there are gaps, they'll (I'll) wait until a later release to start complaining.
[05/08/2003 12:57] <osaf_mitchell> Waiting for a release that does something makes sense to me.  Do you think that discouraged people from caring about the roadmap (how long and for what are we waiting)
[05/08/2003 12:57] <jonathanOSAF> perhaps when there is substantive content on a wiki topic, perhaps a notice coudl be posted to the mailing list, with a request to visit a URL
[05/08/2003 12:58] <osaf_mitchell> luther:  that's interesting
[05/08/2003 12:58] <osaf_mitchell> jonathanOSAF:  we'll try to do that
[05/08/2003 12:58] <sprout> as far as feedback on the roadmap goes, I think that Chandler is bady misunderstood outside the OSAF and the fanatics like me.  I think that many people think of Chandler as an e-mail client 
[05/08/2003 12:59] <kasplat> personally, i'm not paying attention to expected roadmap release dates. when it happens, it happens, your internal guesses as to when are just that right?
[05/08/2003 12:59] <osaf_rys> mitchell: sometimes when you label content as tentative, folks don't respond (echoing luther)
[05/08/2003 12:59] <luther> mitchell: also, you guys are producing docs as fast as I can assimilate them, so i'm not running out of reading. 
[05/08/2003 12:59] <jonathanOSAF> if they think of it as an email client and there is no email client code available yet, it makes it hard for "them" to comment
[05/08/2003 12:59] <sprout> I think its important to be able to demonstrate differentiating features.  
[05/08/2003 12:59] <sprout> jonathan: yes, exactly. 
[05/08/2003 12:59] <osaf_mitchell> luther:  you don't know how long I've waited to hear that.  From the days of no docs to this is almost success!
[05/08/2003 13:00] <luther> mitchell: don't get too happy. I'm a slow reader. 
[05/08/2003 13:00] <osaf_mitchell> The Outlook Killer dilemma.  One can tell the press it's not an Outlook Killer till one is blue in the face to no avail
[05/08/2003 13:00] <sprout> here's another idea:  RSS aggreation is hot right now.  Chandler has the start of an aggregator.  I'd like to see (and would be willing to put effort into) using chandler's underlying archtecture features to build a hot rod aggregator. 
[05/08/2003 13:01] <sprout> The advantage of this is that its a *lot* less work than building an e-mail client. 
[05/08/2003 13:01] <osaf_mitchell> kasplat:  i think the roadmap is light on dates -- purposely   But it does outline our general development plans
[05/08/2003 13:01] <osaf_ducky> sprout: what would a "hotrod aggregator" have in it?
[05/08/2003 13:01] <osaf_mitchell> And i thought people might comment on the general approach
[05/08/2003 13:01] <jonathanOSAF> you may not want to think of it as an "Outlook Killer," but the reality is that a huge number of people (of not most, but not me) use Outlook for their email..
[05/08/2003 13:02] <sprout> I have bunch of ideas, not all fully formed.  You can see some on my blog at (Link: http://www.sauria.com/blog.)http://www.sauria.com/blog.   I'd be happy to discuss this some more if people are interested in this 
[05/08/2003 13:02] <jonathanOSAF> so some accommodation should be taken into account -- so people can try to understand Chandler from that perspective
[05/08/2003 13:02] <sprout> I understand on the e-mail issue, and I want to use chandler for mail as well, but to most people, PIM means Outlook, not Agenda, not Ecco, not Arrange. 
[05/08/2003 13:03] <osaf_mitchell> sprout:  interesting idea.  I'll pass it on to chao when we's back (he's at an unavoidable meeting today, so can't join us)
[05/08/2003 13:03] <kasplat> jonathan: agreed. i too am stuck using Outlook right now and despite following Chandler from when Mitch told me about it last July, an Outlook replacement is still how I think about it
[05/08/2003 13:03] <sprout> I'm not saying change direction.  But a good "community" project to encourage would be hotrodding zaobao  
[05/08/2003 13:03] <kasplat> so if there is a better description i have to zero in on that and start repeating the mantra
[05/08/2003 13:03] <sprout> hotrodding zaobao would also push on architecture stuff that is squishy 
[05/08/2003 13:05] <osaf_ducky> sprout: do you think "the community" would be interested in taking over ZaoBao from Chao?  It's not really Chao's main job responsibility, he did it pretty much as a lark...
[05/08/2003 13:05] <jonathanOSAF> I am thinking that some discussion (from OSAF) about the kinds of use cases that Chandler can handle -- beyond what Outlook does today -- would go a long way towards changing the perception of "Outlook Killer";  and I mean more than "much easier to use"
[05/08/2003 13:05] <sprout> ducky: I personally am interested in doing this.  It's a matter of cycles. 
[05/08/2003 13:06] <osaf_ducky> sprout: *laugh*, that's what Chao says too!
[05/08/2003 13:06] <kasplat> i realize it will do much more, but if i have to explain it to someone in a couple of sentences i don't know what else to say besides outlook replacement
[05/08/2003 13:06] <osaf_kt> sprout: de-squishifying the architecture is certainly our goal for the next release
[05/08/2003 13:06] <jonathanOSAF> I agree that ZaoBao should be offloaded from Chao and developed as kind of a showcase for Chandler's flexibility and capability
[05/08/2003 13:06] <osaf_mitchell> kasplat:  message received.  We need a good 2 sentence description.
[05/08/2003 13:07] <jeffmace> where will these irc logs be placed? wiki?
[05/08/2003 13:07] <sprout> kasplat: and that's exactly the problem.  You're describing Chandler in terms of something that's familiar, but the best parts are the new parts.  I think it's better to try and describe the kinds of information processsing problems that chandler is going to solve. 
[05/08/2003 13:07] <osaf_kt> kasplat: it helps if people are familiar with Agenda
[05/08/2003 13:07] <sprout> imho irc logs should to go e-mail and wiki.  You want to make sure that people see stuff. 
[05/08/2003 13:07] <kasplat> most people have never heard of Agenda or any of the On software Mitch did, so that won't help
[05/08/2003 13:08] <osaf_mitchell> jeffmace:  I don't know where the logs will go.  Actually, I have to confess I hadn't thought a lot about logs yet
[05/08/2003 13:08] <osaf_ducky> Maybe the reason people think of it as " is because email is waaaay more important than anything else they use, so they focus on that
[05/08/2003 13:08] <osaf_ducky> arg
[05/08/2003 13:08] <osaf_kt> kasplat: yes, you're right, we perhaps forget that internally, or at least I do 
[05/08/2003 13:08] <osaf_mitchell> as our first chat this was an experiement.  But clearly logs are important; I'll ask jurgen
[05/08/2003 13:08] <osaf_ducky> "this of it as 'email client'"  (fingers slipped)
[05/08/2003 13:08] <jonathanOSAF> sprout: the info processing stuff is very interesting, but people need a familiar point of reference
[05/08/2003 13:08] <sprout> kasplat is right.  We have to find a way to describe this without outlook, and with mail as one of the use cases 
[05/08/2003 13:08] <kasplat> i guess you could call Chandler "super google on the desktop with email" 
[05/08/2003 13:08] <jurgen> I'm already thinking about it... (logs)
[05/08/2003 13:08] <jeffmace> if somehting goes out to the list about hier location it'll be ok
[05/08/2003 13:09] <sprout> mitchell: I'm using an irc client that logs -- tell me where to send it 
[05/08/2003 13:09] <jurgen> We'll have them next time
[05/08/2003 13:09] <jurgen> send it to me (jbotz@osafoundation.org)
[05/08/2003 13:09] <sprout> jurgen: roger. 
[05/08/2003 13:09] <jurgen> thanks!
[05/08/2003 13:10] <jonathanOSAF> ducky: I agree that email has to be a fundamental part of the description because of its primary importance
[05/08/2003 13:11] <jonathanOSAF> of course, I am also very interested in the task mgmt components 
[05/08/2003 13:11] <osaf_empty> how about, "chandler: the cuisinart of the info kitchen"
[05/08/2003 13:11] <sprout> please don't misunderstand me -- I think that e-mail is very very important 
[05/08/2003 13:11] <jonathanOSAF> ROFL
[05/08/2003 13:11] <osaf_ducky> also, I find that people don't really think that their non-email aps (contact mgr, task manager) are fundamentally broken, and most feel like their email client is only a little bit broken
[05/08/2003 13:11] <luther> Well, since parcels are what interest me about Chandler, I tend to think of it as a Parcel Container.
[05/08/2003 13:12] <sprout> "unfortuanately, no one can be told what the matrix is.  They must be shown" 
[05/08/2003 13:12] <osaf_mitchell> luther:  yes, yes, yes
[05/08/2003 13:12] <jonathanOSAF> that's because they don't realize what they could do, either because advanced powerful features are not available, or more important, are not accessible
[05/08/2003 13:12] <osaf_mitchell> luther:  do you have ideas for types of parcels you would like to see?
[05/08/2003 13:12] <sprout> right, but what is important about a parcel container?    
[05/08/2003 13:13] *** Signoff: jeffmace ((null))
[05/08/2003 13:13] <sprout> I want to stick my info in chandler, and have it all get linked together automatically. 
[05/08/2003 13:13] <osaf_ducky> jonathan: right, but it's hard to convince people that their tools are broken.      I've found a real sense of "learned helplessness" with email -- people tell me "email sucks, it will always suck, there's nothing anyone can do about it"
[05/08/2003 13:13] <kasplat> my guess is that only us techies out here on the edges trying to do project collaboration virtually involving local and remote info are aware that email alone sucks
[05/08/2003 13:13] <osaf_ducky> (Note that I fundamentally disagree with that attitude, but that's what I find)
[05/08/2003 13:13] <luther> sprout: well, first there was an EJB standard. Then came the EJB containers. Lots of them. I think Chandler may provide the equivalent of EJBs for ordinary Joe Blow. 
[05/08/2003 13:14] <osaf_mitchell> i'm ignorant:  what's "EJB" ?
[05/08/2003 13:14] <osaf_empty> gui is partly to blame, people don't have the idea that their data is something seperate from the program they use to process it
[05/08/2003 13:14] <jonathanOSAF> ducky: it is not that the tools are broken, it is more like they have no idea what is possible
[05/08/2003 13:14] <luther> Enterprise Java Bean
[05/08/2003 13:14] <osaf_mitchell> ah, i knew that 
[05/08/2003 13:14] <sprout> People are talking about how they are drowning in information.   Chandler is all about helping people deal with that 
[05/08/2003 13:14] <osaf_empty> are we off topic now?
[05/08/2003 13:14] <jonathanOSAF> but I suppose the people who don't know about basic filters and multiple mail boxes are not the intial target audience
[05/08/2003 13:15] <osaf_mitchell> yes, I was just forming my next "on topic" question
[05/08/2003 13:15] <sprout> I'd like to see a parcel that does what hydra does 
[05/08/2003 13:15] <osaf_ducky> jonathan -- I do believe that the tools are fundamentally broken.  Well, okay, "broken" is a bit harsh because they don't crash.. but email clients are NOT set up to help the user manage large amounts of email.  But I digress...
[05/08/2003 13:16] <osaf_mitchell> This question of helping people understand what Chandler is:  does the Vision document have any useful info?
[05/08/2003 13:16] <jonathanOSAF> ducky: I agree
[05/08/2003 13:16] <osaf_ducky> I'll shut up about email
[05/08/2003 13:16] <osaf_mitchell> or maybe only those of us inside OSAF have read it 
[05/08/2003 13:16] <kasplat> that first paragraph is why people think outlook killer
[05/08/2003 13:16] <jonathanOSAF> ducky: it is important that you NOT shut-up about email, as that is what most people can relate to most easily
[05/08/2003 13:16] <osaf_ducky> Vision doc is at (Link: http://www.osafoundation.org/Chandler_Compelling_Vision.htm)http://www.osafoundation.org/Chandler_Compelling_Vision.htm
[05/08/2003 13:17] <osaf_ducky> sprout: what is hydra?
[05/08/2003 13:17] <osaf_ducky> I meant I'd shut up *for this chat session*
[05/08/2003 13:17] <sprout> hydra is a p2p collaborative editing tool.  hold on while I find you a link 
[05/08/2003 13:17] <sprout> here: hydra.globalse.org/ 
[05/08/2003 13:17] <jonathanOSAF> I think that strong interconnectedness is a compelling technology for Chandler, but it needs to be expressed in simple use cases
[05/08/2003 13:18] <osaf_mitchell> kasplat:  the irst paragraph because email comes first? Or because people translate general info management into "email"
[05/08/2003 13:18] <jonathanOSAF> "expressed" meaning "explained"
[05/08/2003 13:18] <luther> Yeah. I've got Hydra on my laptop. I think their goal is to support extreme programming.
[05/08/2003 13:18] <sprout> there are lots more uses for something like hydra beyond extreme programming 
[05/08/2003 13:19] <kasplat> outlook is email, tasks, calendar, contacts
[05/08/2003 13:19] <sprout> read some of the reports of the oreilly etcon on collaborative note taking during a conference / meeting 
[05/08/2003 13:19] <osaf_mitchell> Back to the mundane for a moment:  anyone hae thoughts on topics for next week's chats?
[05/08/2003 13:19] <kasplat> but to use it beyond a single person or a single machine effectively requires exchange server
[05/08/2003 13:19] <sprout> I'd like the hear about either storage or the data model 
[05/08/2003 13:19] <osaf_mitchell> I could start with architecture, or writing a parcel, or perhaps Chao the project manager talking about the product in general
[05/08/2003 13:19] <kasplat> that alone means there is an opportunity for a different approach
[05/08/2003 13:20] <osaf_mitchell> storage or data model -- you've picked two of the biggest knots 
[05/08/2003 13:20] <sprout> I know.   I want to hear the thinking and have some interaction around it. 
[05/08/2003 13:20] <kasplat> but chandler is much more, while outlook is about data islands, hey outlook doesn't know squat about my wifes machine or even the files on my local hard disk, let alone my notebook
[05/08/2003 13:20] <sprout> Aren't those the areas where progress needs to be made? 
[05/08/2003 13:20] <osaf_mitchell> Ah.  You mean like participate in making progress ...
[05/08/2003 13:20] <osaf_mitchell> rather than an update of where things are
[05/08/2003 13:20] <osaf_rys> sprout: i'll be describing the thinking around storage soon
[05/08/2003 13:21] <sprout> isn't that the point of these? 
[05/08/2003 13:21] <osaf_mitchell> i was being ironic, or trying.  Of course,
[05/08/2003 13:21] <jonathanOSAF> I would like to discuss the integration of task management (at some point)
[05/08/2003 13:21] <sprout> jonathanOSAF: in the UI or the datamodel? 
[05/08/2003 13:22] <jonathanOSAF> mostly UI, but there are important concepts which need to be reflected in the data model
[05/08/2003 13:22] <osaf_mitchell> It's clear to me that one important topic is "what is chandler"
[05/08/2003 13:22] <kasplat> from a user standpoint, i want a release of chandler that i can do useful stuff with and it will make sense to run it in parallel with Outlook which will continue to be my primary contacts/email until chandler matures
[05/08/2003 13:22] <osaf_mitchell> the descripiton that's not "Outlook Killer"
[05/08/2003 13:23] <osaf_mitchell> we need to try to explain this and get people to push back on areas of fuzzy thinking
[05/08/2003 13:23] <kasplat> so that means chandler as opposed to using Groove or some combo of wiki/irc/mailing list for group collaboration
[05/08/2003 13:23] <sprout> kasplat: ita 
[05/08/2003 13:23] <jonathanOSAF> kasplat: do you see Chandler as a primary collaboration tool?
[05/08/2003 13:23] <kasplat> not today
[05/08/2003 13:23] <jonathanOSAF> tomorrow?
[05/08/2003 13:23] <kasplat> is it supposed to be?
[05/08/2003 13:23] <sprout> I hope so 
[05/08/2003 13:24] <kasplat> ok, well why not do that first
[05/08/2003 13:25] <kasplat> however as i told aleks at PyCon and have stated on the mailing list before, there is no way i'm allowing pull from my box via p2p with the early releases of chandler
[05/08/2003 13:25] <kasplat> so i may not be a good candidate for the bleeding edge
[05/08/2003 13:25] <kasplat> i'll push, i just want people to hammer on the security before i commit my box
[05/08/2003 13:25] <jonathanOSAF> mitchell: with regard to feedback, perhaps you can put out some specific questions that you would like comment on
[05/08/2003 13:27] <osaf_mitchell> jonathan:  you mean to close this session, or in general?
[05/08/2003 13:27] <jonathanOSAF> in general
[05/08/2003 13:27] <jonathanOSAF> actually, I need to run, but I will be interested in seeing a transcript
[05/08/2003 13:28] <osaf_mitchell> OK.  We're coming up on an hour, so it might be time to close the "official" chat.  
[05/08/2003 13:28] <osaf_mitchell> Everyone's welcome to stay, of course.  Are they any open questions we should address now?
[05/08/2003 13:28] <kasplat> sorry for going on and on, i'll shut up next time
[05/08/2003 13:28] <sprout> I'd like to talk some more about an extended ZaoBao 
[05/08/2003 13:28] <osaf_mitchell> no, please don't.  You've made a critical point about our need to explain chandler
[05/08/2003 13:29] <osaf_mitchell> sprout:  ZaoBao was written by Chao, who isn't with us today.  So I'm not sure how far we can get.  Let's try though
[05/08/2003 13:30] <sprout> I briefly looked at the code, and from what I could discern it appears that the RSS items are not stored in the chandler storage -- is that right? 
[05/08/2003 13:30] <osaf_rys> what kind of explanations are good? detailed? general? technical? analytical? arguments?
[05/08/2003 13:30] <osaf_ducky> That's correct, but that's a bug that we know we will be fixing soon.
[05/08/2003 13:31] <osaf_ducky> Chao wrote this on his own as a stand-alone dohicky thing.  In the meantime, something changed with the data model and repository (that I'm not clear on)
[05/08/2003 13:31] <osaf_ducky> so ZaoBao didn't make use of the whizzier repository.
[05/08/2003 13:31] <sprout> ok.  that's what I thought.  How far away is that fix? 
[05/08/2003 13:32] <osaf_ducky> uh, I don't know.  That's a Katie question, and I think Katie just went downstairs to get some food.
[05/08/2003 13:32] <osaf_ducky> errr Katie or Chao.  Oh, she's back... deferring to Katie
[05/08/2003 13:33] <sprout> ok.   let me point out that if cvs commits were logged to a mailing list, I could watch that list and not need to keep bugging you about this  
[05/08/2003 13:33] <osaf_kt> ZaoBao was never really using the repository
[05/08/2003 13:33] <kasplat> on the aggregator front, i suggest bringing up the issue on comp.lang.python and/or i can forward some stuff offlist
[05/08/2003 13:33] <kasplat> there is a lot of prior work already done in python
[05/08/2003 13:33] <osaf_kt> but it shouldn't be too hard to move it to the new repository
[05/08/2003 13:33] <kasplat> altis@semi-retired.com
[05/08/2003 13:33] <osaf_morgen> There is also the web front-end to CVS at (Link: http://cvs.osafoundation.org/)http://cvs.osafoundation.org/ (has cvs history browsing too)
[05/08/2003 13:33] <sprout> kasplat: i'd appreciate a forward of what you've got 
[05/08/2003 13:34] <osaf_kt> the bigger issue is that we're just at the beginning of getting the data model work going
[05/08/2003 13:35] <sprout> morgen: the problem with the web front end to CVS is that I have to go there and navigate through it.  I can do it, but it's easier for me to watch the commit logs.   That's partly cultural, but partly a time efficiency thing.   
[05/08/2003 13:35] <sprout> people who care can subscribe to the commit list.  people who don't won't be bothered. 
[05/08/2003 13:36] <osaf_kt> we'll be doing a lot of work on the data model in the next release 0.2
[05/08/2003 13:36] <sprout> kt: is this something that I could help on? 
[05/08/2003 13:36] <osaf_morgen> sprout:  yes, I want the commit mailing list too -- it's on our todo list...  
[05/08/2003 13:36] <osaf_kt> and all of the parcels will be using the latest data model for the 0.2 release
[05/08/2003 13:36] <sprout> there are a couple of packages out there to help do commit mailing lists. 
[05/08/2003 13:36] <osaf_kt> sprout: zaobao, or the data model?
[05/08/2003 13:37] <sprout> kt: zaobao and any data model issues related to it. 
[05/08/2003 13:37] <osaf_kt> that's certainly possible 
[05/08/2003 13:37] <sprout> kt: it' be a good way for me to learn the repository api which is one of the barriers to me actually being a help  
[05/08/2003 13:38] <osaf_kt> indeed
[05/08/2003 13:39] <osaf_kt> chao has his name on it right now, I'm sure we could work something out if he's amenable
[05/08/2003 13:39] <luther> kt: is there anything on the wiki to indicate where the latest thinking on the parcel data model is going?
[05/08/2003 13:39] <osaf_kt> yes, let me look up the links...
[05/08/2003 13:39] <osaf_ducky> I could be wrong, but I have the impression that Chao would like to get out from under ZaoBao.
[05/08/2003 13:40] <osaf_kt> We're collecting info about the data model here: (Link: http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Chandler/OldDataModelPage)http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Chandler/OldDataModelPage
[05/08/2003 13:40] <osaf_kt> In particular, the substantive list of issues is here: (Link: http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Jungle/DataModelIssues)http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Jungle/DataModelIssues
[05/08/2003 13:40] <luther> kt: thanks.
[05/08/2003 13:41] <osaf_kt> Notes on our experiment with the python api to the repository is here: (Link: http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Jungle/DataModelNotesOn0dot1Release)http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Jungle/DataModelNotesOn0dot1Release
[05/08/2003 13:41] <phil> Shorter URL: (Link: http://l.aloha.osafoundation.org:8765/1)http://l.aloha.osafoundation.org:8765/1
[05/08/2003 13:41] <sprout> thx. 
[05/08/2003 13:42] <osaf_kt> The schema that's up there perhaps doesn't reflect all of the thinking that we've done
[05/08/2003 13:42] <osaf_kt> so don't worry too much if it doesn't have your favorite item or attribute 
[05/08/2003 13:42] <sprout> that's fine.  I'll take a look 
[05/08/2003 13:43] <osaf_morgen> ignore phil, he doesn't know what he's talking about 
[05/08/2003 13:44] <sprout> I should probably go back to earning a living now.  Maybe I'll drop in for the 5pm.  Thanks for all the hard work you folks are doing! 
[05/08/2003 13:44] <osaf_mitchell> Thanks for join us.
[05/08/2003 13:44] <sprout> jurgen: expect the logs directly. 
[05/08/2003 13:44] <osaf_kt> yes thanks!
[05/08/2003 13:44] <jurgen> sprout: great!