Here is a summary + transcript from today's IRC session on OSAF Information Usage Scenarios.

At a high-level, here's what we learned (please feel free to reply with things to add to this list if you feel it is incomplete):

USERS

There are at least 2 different types of OSAF staff users: Mostly-Writers (Contributors) and Mostly-Readers (Consumers). There seems to be a rough correlation between Most-Writers and Managers.

CONTRIBUTING

There is considerable confusion for new hires who need/want to Write a lot as to where they should park their stuff. Over time however, people seem to figure out a system that works for them. The end result of that however is that everyone has their own system. As more people aggregate, the barrier to entry for new people grows higher and higher.

CONSUMING

We identified 2 information consumption use cases:

• I have something in mind I need to find (ie. Those meeting notes from the )
• What's been added to the wiki in the last day/week/month that is of interest to me, requires my attention, requires my feedback.

The ways in which people accomplished these tasks were varied:

• Search / Google Search
• Bookmarks
• Searching through old emails
• Monitoring the Wiki changes RSS feed

STRUCTURE

There was general agreement that there was a difference between:

• Time-based logs: personal journal entries, meeting notes and
• Persistent content: team pages, issues pages

And that difference needed to be accounted for both in terms of the tools we ask people to use to write content and the tools we ask people

NAVIGATION

There was also confusion about the overall structure of the wiki. Several people commented that the high level Project/Journal/etc framework wasn't apparent to them for a long time. Also, individuals had personal notions of how to annotate WikiNames^? (ie. Add dates for Journal entries) to distinguish between Time-based logs and Persistent content. But those notions are not universally known or used.

CONTEXT

The difficulty of distinguishing between old, out-of-date content and current thinking was a barrier, even for heavy wiki contributors who have been here for a long time (ie. Katie). However, the distinction between out-of-date/current and half-baked seems to be easier for most people.

It's also clear from past conversations that there are gaps in information on the wiki, things we just haven't gotten around to documenting. But we didn't have a chance to delve deeper into this issue.

Context seems like a particular problem for information consumers. Especially for people outside of OSAF. However, there was only 1 community member participating in the IRC chat, so they were generally under-represented.

CHANNELS

People were generally afraid to use the OSAF blog and it wasn't clear who was using it. Looking at the comments, it doesn't generate a lot of interaction with the community. There was a lot of interest in using a blog for personal Journal entries and Meeting notes. Although there was an equal amount of concern about what that would mean for information consumers trying to find content.

The OSAF website was the least mentioned resource during the session.

We also didn't really talk very much about the various lists. Although there was general consensus that the list was the best way to provide feedback and comments on content posted to the wiki. Again however, this poses problems for people coming in later on trying to reconstruct past conversations and decisions through the information we provide on the wiki.

INTRODUCING NEWBIES

Nobody felt comfortable dumping people new to OSAF to a top-level page in the wiki (new hires, community, family + friends). Instead, people hand-select links for people depending on who they're audience is.

---

IRC Transcript: http://kumu.osafoundation.org/~ircd/irc-logs/osaf.log.20060315

11:02soup > Hello, and welcome to the OSAF Office Hour! 11:02soup > 11:02soup > These office hours take place at 11am Pacific Time on one of several channels including #chandler, #cosmo, #scooby, or #osaf 11:02soup > depending on the topic. Advance notice will be posted to the appropriate mail lists and is on the Chat Schedule on the wiki at: 11:02soup > http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Projects/ChatSchedule#Office_Hours 11:02soup > 11:02soup > As always, we log everything into the IRC transcripts for future reference. You can find transcripts for today's chat at 11:02soup > http://wiki.osafoundation.org/script/getIrcTranscript.cgi?channel=osaf&date=20060315&startTime=1100 11:02soup > Links to transcripts for previous office hours can be found on the Chat Schedule at: 11:02soup > http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Projects/ChatSchedule#Past_Office_Hours 11:02soup > 11:02soup > This week during the IRC office hour the focus will be on a OSAF - Portal project - How do we make it easier to find what you need to know? 11:02soup > Ted Leung will lead a group brainstorming exercise to extract OSAF information usage scenarios. 11:02soup > We're hoping to jumpstart the process with collaboratively edited wiki pages with a loose structure and some generic categories of usage scenarios. Jump in and provide specific examples and anecdotes as well as add your own categories. 11:02soup > 11:02bear > all yours sprout 11:02soup > Ted, take it away... 11:02sprout > ok 11:02sprout > so a while ago we put up a wiki page 11:02sprout > http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Journal/OSAFInformationUsageScenarios 11:03sprout > to try to find out how people were using the various web properties that fall under the "portal" project 11:03hartsook > hold on a sec sprout, my irc client just shut down, let me run the boiler plate. 11:03sprout > bear ran it 11:03hartsook > thanks bear. 11:03sprout > so the goal for this irc is to get people to give us more of the information that we were looking for on that page 11:04sprout > so that we can try to make some decision about what to fix 11:04sprout > and in what order to fix it. 11:04sprout > so I'm going to ask mimi/hamstar to lead that discussion 11:04sprout > hamstar? 11:04hamstar > hi 11:05hamstar > so we've had a few people add their personal anecdotes to the wiki page 11:05hamstar > but we'd like to collect examples for more people 11:05hamstar > so to start off with, could people talk a little about how they've used various osaf communication portals in the last week? 11:06capps > I use the wiki every day :) 11:06capps > I use it for platform meeting notes 11:06hamstar > uh 11:06hamstar > where are those notes located? 11:06capps > and the platform team overview 11:06hamstar let's see how long it takes her to find it 11:06aparna > I use journal notes to keep track of meeting notes and other discussions 11:07sprout > used the wiki, didn't use the website, didn't post to the blog (but did read it), used the mailing list, didn't use the private wiki. 11:07mikeal-fu > i use my sandbox to draft documentation 11:07capps > http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Projects/DeveloperPlatformProject -- glance of who is doing what on the platform team 11:07mikeal-fu > the wiki sandbox that is 11:07capps > and links to notes from that project 11:07sprout > i use rss feeds to keep up on what changed on the wiki 11:07hamstar > sprout, how often do you follow up on what you see in the feed? 11:07capps > I always start from http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Projects/DevelopmentHome 11:07philippeB > post all meeting notes to the wiki, use the Journal or Projects section 11:08capps > I also went and looked at the apps team pages 11:08hamstar > has anyone here read any of the notes that people have mentioned? meeting notes in particular? 11:08sprout > i usually read the feeds like every other day or so, and try to actually follow up when i read the feed 11:08capps > I read the apps team meeting notes (almost) every week 11:08sprout > I read the meeting notes 11:08capps > and I refer back to notes from the platform team 11:08sprout > I also read philippe's notes - he usually batches them together 11:08aparna > yes I do read apps meeting notes 11:08hamstar > philippe's daily notes? 11:08philippeB feeling embarassed those notes have this visibility... 11:09sprout > I read the platform meeting notes 11:09hamstar > what falls out of reading these notes? action items? questions? 11:09philippeB > yes, that's my personal log 11:09sprout > dude you put them on the wiki 11:09aparna > I have occasionally referred to platform meeting notes 11:09bear > I do all my reading from the feed - skim any journal pages of interest and read any project page that changes 11:09sprout > hamstar, usually just information to know what's going on 11:09capps > I use them to roll up the overall progess thing that goes out (which I always have trouble finding) 11:09hamstar > does anybody re-file things? 11:09sprout > occasoinally to ask someone a question 11:09capps > yes, I do sometimes 11:09hamstar > ie. apps meeting notes talk about item collection architecture... 11:09aparna > I have hardly ever refiled things. 11:09capps > yes --> I refile things on rare occasions 11:10sprout > re-file = move stuff to a different page? 11:10hamstar > copy and paste to a page in the wiki on item collection architecture 11:10sprout > or bookmark? 11:10philippeB > I've done it several times 11:10hamstar > move stuff 11:10capps > I interpreted it as "reparent" or "rename" 11:10hamstar > capps and phillipeB, expamples? 11:10hamstar > examples 11:10sprout > if I refile, it's usually because of project work, not because of a regular scan of page changes 11:10capps > http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Projects/BugzillaComponentsZeroPointSeven 11:10capps > it started as a personal journal page 11:10capps > and I moved it to be "official" for 0.7 11:11philippeB > e.g. SAPP page: started as Journal page of my journal and landed on the Projects section when ready for consumption 11:11sprout > I copy stuff out of journal pages and onto other pags 11:11hamstar > does anybody refile "other people's stuff" 11:11capps > sometimes I copy, sometimes I just move the page 11:11hamstar > if not reparent, but copy and paste 11:11sprout > rarely, and i would ask first 11:11hamstar > capps, other people's stuff 11:11hamstar > ? 11:11capps > depends on if I think there are links to it already in email 11:11capps > I have done that 11:12sprout > i've only rarely moved other people's stuff, and usually I ask before I do it 11:12capps > if I run into some out of date page, I have refiled into the trash 11:12sprout > I have edited other people's stuff, but I don' task when I do that 11:12capps > I've wanted to refile pages that are meeting notes 11:12capps > that are not in the journal 11:13hamstar > so for everyone present...would you characterize yourselves as writers, readers or some hybrid...if some hybrid...than could you give a relative weighting: more of a writer, less of a reader 11:13capps > I actually like the distinction 11:13capps > of some pages are "ZeroDotSeven" 11:13capps > and some pages are "20060301" 11:13capps > and some are timeless heh 11:13capps > this gives me a cue as to how dated the information is 11:14hamstar > capps: distinction between journal/meeting logs and "subject-matter" pages? 11:14capps > and whether or not it is expected to be updated 11:14capps > hamstar: yes, and if the page is meant to be updated, or just captured notes for a particular conversation 11:14sprout > actually one interesting thing to do would be to look at the history of wiki changes over some period of time 11:15hamstar > are there any "mostly readers" in the house? 11:15capps > journal + date --> implies just notes from one conversation 11:15aparna > hamstar, to answer your earlier queswtion : I am 70% reader and 30% writer 11:15hamstar > aparna, how do you figure out what you should be reading? 11:16bear > hamstar, I am a mostly reader except for a very small set of pages that I "own" 11:16hamstar > capps: i wonder how universally understood that is 11:16capps > 40% reader, 60% writer 11:16aparna > I subscribe to the wiki changes so some are based on that. I have bookmarked some other pages 11:16sprout > i am probably the same - I mostly write status and journal pages -- the item collection project pages didn't get update much, but I hope to do a better job on the domain model project pages 11:16sprout > same = 70% read, 30% write 11:16hamstar > so it's more of grazing what's new...to figure out relevant content for yourself 11:17capps > hmmm if I'm honest with myself I might be 30% reader 70% writer! 11:17philippeB > 50% - 50% so clearly writing takes more time than reading... 11:17hamstar > how about other people focusing your attention on something via (email) 11:17sprout > hamstar, I am mostly looking to find out what happened in meetings that I wasn't in 11:17capps > hamstar: I know to look at apps page, or performance page (in the last release) 11:17heikkit > same here 11:18moondawg > I also read most of the meeting notes posted on the wiki 11:18sprout > I also use #osaf-notices to watch pages 11:18capps > otherwise its usually from some link someone mailed me 11:18bear > same for me - I'm looking for clues as to new activity from meetings 11:18hamstar > i guess what i'm driving at, is that there's no way for anyone to say: give me all the stuff that has to do with Sharing, because that's what I'm responsible for 11:18capps > I almost never use the rss feed or osaf-notices 11:18hamstar > Give me all the stuff that's For: Aparna 11:18sprout > hamstar, i think that's right 11:18capps > yup 11:18heikkit > there might be tagging plugins for wiki... 11:18sprout > part of that is because stuff is also now in the mailing list archives 11:18bear > yea - finding topical groupings from the wiki is impossible - I only "dig into it" for a known page 11:18sprout > and doesn't get moved to the wiki 11:19sprout > or in web page specs 11:19hamstar > what are people's experiences with "getting enough context" when they land on a page 11:19sprout > our very own "data diaspora" 11:19hamstar > sprout: ironically it's all stored in the same place 11:19bear > I have come to not expect context on most wiki pages 11:19hamstar > don't give up bear... 11:19bear > :) 11:19sprout > well, no, mailing-list archives, web page specs, wiki pages 11:19capps > hamstar: I have no problem with context as I am creating so much of the wiki content heh 11:20hamstar > well that's one solution yes 11:20moondawg > Some pages have context. For instance, I know I can go to the apps home page or the platform home page to get status, task lists etc. 11:20sprout > i don't have much problems with context in wiki pages 11:20sprout > i have more context problems with mail 11:20hamstar > bear, do you just give up understanding? or do you dig around to figure out context? or email questions out? 11:20capps > I do sometimes have trouble with out of date info 11:20capps > or finding info 11:20moondawg > same with me. 11:20bear > moondawg has a point - I do go to the project summary pages to find info - it's easier because they have good links 11:20sprout observes that most of the participants in this conversation are "managers" 11:21capps > I do go look for reference info (subversion or how profiles are stored or whatever) 11:21aparna > Sprout +1 ....more context problems with email 11:21capps > yeah, we use the wiki for our daily work 11:21hamstar > yeah i repeat: are there any more "mostly readers" in the house? 11:21bear > hamstar, I don't give up but if I don't already know the context I ask on IRC or figure it out later 11:21bear > looks like I'm the only "mostly reader" trooper here :) 11:21aparna > I tend to dig out email to get the context... 11:21hamstar > bear, do you ever update wiki pages with the context you've acquired? 11:21danS > I am probably over 95% reader 11:21philippeB apparently, the readers don't write... not even on IRC... :) 11:22aparna > mostly reader too 11:22mde > I don't add the much to the wiki. I mostly read. 11:22sprout > alecf, bobbyrullo, davids, mde, Morgen, reid[osaf], stearns 11:22sprout > we need some input from you folks on this stuff 11:22bobbyrullo > yesssss... 11:22mikeal-fu > i read a lot, but I would read more if it was easier to find the info I want 11:22bear > hamstar, sadly no - I don't feel "comfortable" in making links between pages 11:22hamstar > so an interesting stat to have would be: do writers read more than readers? 11:22mde > This may be sad, but until recently I wasn't even clear on the top-level organization of the wiki. 11:23stearns reads back... 11:23hamstar > how do people deal with comments on wiki pages? 11:23mde > The colors did nothing to clue me in there. 11:23reid[osaf] does ditto 11:23bobbyrullo > ditto 11:23davids > I write to keep track of my own domain 11:23mikeal-fu > there is top-level organization of the wiki? 11:23mde > The three big sections. 11:23mikeal-fu > oh the projects vs main thing 11:23Morgen > I scan the Wiki RSS feeds 11:23mikeal-fu > that doesn't really help me find things 11:23mde > Yeah, I had no clue what that all was. 11:24capps > seems like two different use cases... 11:24capps > "find something" 11:24davids > I bookmark useful wiki pages 11:24mde > And I agree with bear about lack of context in the wiki. 11:24capps > and "look at recent changes for something I should care about" 11:24philippeB > Search in the Wiki is one huge issue 11:24hamstar > capps: yup 11:24aparna > oh yeah search is practically unusable on wiki 11:24mikeal-fu > i'm starting an osafwiki del.ici.ous tag 11:24mde > Yes, search doesn't seem to work well. 11:24capps > do you guys use the google search? 11:24hamstar > yes 11:24mikeal-fu > i use google search now 11:24capps > http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Projects/GoogleWikiSearch 11:24hamstar > hit or miss 11:24hamstar > 50/50 11:25aparna > yeah I have used google wiki search on some occasions 11:25aparna > I have had more hits than misses luckily 11:25bear > I find it faster to grep my osaf-notices log for clues than to use the wiki search 11:25sprout > when I talked to deb richardson at mozilla, she told me they had just gotten their own google search appliance for their wiki 11:25mde > I haven't tried Google, but I know it doesn't keep up with page moves very well. 11:26mikeal-fu > i think the appliance fixes that 11:26hamstar > so wrt comments... 11:26hamstar > oops 11:26hamstar > when people put stuff on the wiki, do they ever go back to look for comments? 11:26philippeB > I do 11:26hamstar > and how often do writers revisit what they've written? 11:26sprout > i'd rely on an rss change notification to get me to go back. 11:26moondawg > I do sometimes 11:26sprout > i don't look manually 11:26aparna embarassed to say I rarely go back to look at comments 11:26davids > I do 11:26sprout > too much to remember 11:26bear > I depend on the rss change notification to let me know if a page has new content 11:27capps > I almost never use the wiki for getting comments or feedback -- generally use the list for that 11:27reid[osaf] > Is there an RSS for the whole wiki, or does each page have its own? 11:27heikkit > I rely on the email change notifications 11:27sprout > capps, +1 11:27hamstar > how about people who add comments 11:27Morgen > Usually I will create a wiki page that has a proposal or mockup, then email a link to a mailing list, and discussion is done on the list, not in the wiki page 11:27mde > Yeah +1 on lists for getting comments. 11:27hamstar > do you feel like they're responded to by the original authors? 11:27sprout > reid[osaf], you can sub to changes for each wiki 11:27capps > bugzilla components was an exception 11:27reid[osaf] > #osaf-notices would be much more useful for me if there was a link to the page that was changed 11:27hamstar > or do you feel like they end up in a black hole? 11:27capps > heikki and philippe updated the page, and I went and looked for that 11:27sprout > reid[osaf], you can click -- you get to a diffs page, but from there you can go to the original 11:27capps > because it was a shared artifact that we were constructing 11:28sprout > hmm 11:28reid[osaf] > Ya, I do that - it's just getting to be annoying. :-) 11:28hamstar > are there any non-staff people around to chime in? 11:28sprout > maybe we aren't building that many shared wiki pages 11:28reid[osaf] adds http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Journal/WebRss?skin=rss to NewsFire^? 11:28capps > comments on wiki --> probably a black hole 11:28Morgen > reid, what about the RSS feeds? 11:28Morgen > oh, you found em :-) 11:28hartsook > you can subscribe to rss feed for, individual pages, a whole wiki, or even a search result. 11:28reid[osaf] > I am trying them out right now. +1 for RSS feeds! 11:28capps > with exceptions for proposals that have been announced as such 11:29sprout > r 11:29sprout > s 11:29Last > message repeated 1 time(s). 11:29sprout > r 11:29sprout > s 11:29Last > message repeated 1 time(s). 11:29reid[osaf] throws sprout a cookie 11:29capps wonders if sprout has pom-poms 11:29reid[osaf] > good sprout 11:29sprout > no pom poms, but i do have a button 11:29Morgen > Give me an "R" 11:29hamstar > what are people's experiences sending other people outside of osaf to the wiki? 11:29hamstar > ru embarassed to? do you give people specific links to start with? 11:29jjsowers > search not so good 11:30reid[osaf] > hamstar: I've never done that 11:30sprout > I'd have to send them the direct link 11:30hamstar > do you pretend like we don't have one? 11:30capps > ummmm, yeah sort of 11:30hamstar > sprout, example? 11:30sprout > honestly I'm embarrassed to, but there isn't any other choice of info 11:30sprout > well, this week I send a few people the link to your etech preso page ;-) 11:30philippeB > I send direct links like sprout 11:30hamstar > where are the biggest gaps? 11:30aparna > yeah I have sent direct links too. 11:30stearns > (done reading back; I'm mostly a reader, and I find it hard to find (or re-find!) stuff. Because I find reading hard, I don't write much) 11:30capps > well, chandler.osafoundation.org was certainly helpful, I'm much more likely to give someone that link :) 11:30hamstar > when someone has a question about x: there's no place for me to send them to 11:30reid[osaf] has his own "Chandler" page with links to his own OSAF wiki pages -- http://chandler.tnir.org 11:31sprout > hamstar, i think that mde and several others' comments about top level wiki organization are pretty telling 11:31bear > hamstar, I send a lot of build related questions to the wiki 11:31hamstar > yup 11:31sprout > if you can't send people to the top and have them find stuff 11:31jjsowers > issue seems to be the need for an index. every item on a Chandler menu ought to have a reference somewhere 11:31sprout > then it's all down hill after that 11:31capps > yeah, build related stuff 11:31bear > and I also send spec related questions to the design and or ZeroPoint^?* pages 11:31hamstar > what about people's new hire experiences? 11:32jjsowers > e.g. EVDB, iCalendar support, 11:32hamstar > priss? do you have any thoughts on that? 11:32aparna > hamstar: I generally compose an email with all the relevant links copied in the email itself for new hires. 11:32reid[osaf] > Are we supposed to use http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Sandbox/WebHome at all? I cleaned up the main page for it the other day.. 11:32hartsook > Does anyone find the nav sidebar helpful for top-level nav? 11:33hamstar > i do 11:33bear > I do - it lets me jump to known spots 11:33hamstar > irc logs and mailing lists 11:33capps > I use the nav-sidebar all the time 11:33hamstar > downloading chandler 11:33moondawg > I never use the nav sidebar 11:33mikeal-fu > i useit 11:33stearns > I don't 11:33sprout > I don't use the top nav bar 11:33aparna > I don't use the nav side bar 11:33capps > to get to bugzilla, tinderbox, dev home, irc lists, cosmo/scooby 11:33mikeal-fu > it seems a bit big for the amount of links in it though 11:33bear > if I'm not going to a direct page I always start from the sidebar 11:33hamstar > reid[osaf] how did you find the sandbox? 11:33reid[osaf] > On the sidebar I use "Dev Projects" a lot and the Cosmo/Scooby/Chandler links sometimes. 11:33stearns > I pretty much only use Google search. 11:33hamstar > are there any other new hire stories? 11:34hamstar > stearns, can you give some examples of search terms from the last week? 11:34reid[osaf] > hamstar: I drilled down through some wiki doc we have. There is one or two other top-level wikis too. 11:34stearns > "stamping" :-) 11:34capps > heh 11:34sprout > heh 11:34sprout > reid[osaf]? thoughts? 11:34Priss > sorry did someone ping me here? 11:34sprout > new hire thoughts, that is... 11:34bear realizes he searches more using soup than the wiki search 11:35sprout > bear = king of bots 11:35capps > Priss, we're looking for your experience trying to use the wiki as a new hire :) 11:35reid[osaf] > sprout: reid[osaf]: On the sidebar I use "Dev Projects" a lot and the Cosmo/Scooby/Chandler links sometimes. 11:35bear > :) 11:35reid[osaf] > sprout: did you mean those thoughts? 11:35heikkit > we sort of had/have index: the glossary 11:35sprout > or any other new hire thoughts on the web/wiki 11:35aparna wonders how bear uses soup for searches but that's a question to ask bear offline 11:35heikkit > butthe glossary wasn't considered useful and hasn't been maintained 11:35Priss > oh I have that archived somewhere...I was documenting my hiring process when I first came on board... 11:35hamstar > priss recentally started a design glossary 11:35heikkit > I think it could be useful if maintained 11:35hamstar > something brian skinner had done a long time ago, but sort of died 11:35Priss > quick recap...it was difficult finding things... 11:36sprout > the glossary isn't even visible from the side/top nav bars 11:36Priss > unless someone pointed it out to me and sent me a URL in an email. 11:36sprout > you can't use what you can't see 11:36reid[osaf] > I would like a page with "last 100 modified pages" or something. Or maybe "March 2006 modified pages" 11:36heikkit > like.. Sharing: short definition, then links to best sharing pages 11:36hamstar > priss, could you give some examples 11:36stearns > I've bookmarked DevHome^? and the ZeroPointWhatever^? planning pages - if it's not linked from them, I use Google to try to find it, but there's usually 10 out-of-date hits for each currently-relevent hit) 11:36capps > sprout: that is because we're not maintaining it 11:36bear > reid[osaf], it's called WebChanges 11:36hamstar > capps: i think the barrier to entering a glossary item was also too high 11:36Priss > Also I noticed the search didn't work on the wiki, but on the osaf homepage (osafoundation.org) I did use the search quite a bit. 11:36sprout > capps, it's a (un) virtuous cycle 11:37Priss > *priss thinking of examples to give.* 11:37reid[osaf] > bear: ooooh, coool. 11:37capps > well, more explicit than a cycle -- we made a conscious decision to not maintain it (which we could reverse) 11:37hamstar > how did new hires figure out basic stuff like: irc channels, mailing lists? 11:37bear > reid[osaf], it's the same content you will get from the rss feed 11:37hamstar > logistics 11:37hartsook > you also have the WebStatistics page to see the most viewed pages in each wiki http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Projects/WebStatistics 11:37reid[osaf] > bear: is there a "most active pages"? 11:37bear > reid[osaf], no 11:38bear > oops - hartsook has just schooled me :) 11:38sprout > school the rest of us... 11:38moondawg > When I started chao sent me an email with all the info about irc, mailing lists etc. I never looked for this on the wiki. 11:38sprout > oops 11:38heikkit > nice, that stats page, didn't know about it 11:38danS > as a new hire I got brief instruction on how to usr IRC & mail lists and such which included pointing out associated wiki pages 11:38hamstar > pieter, i think that stats page is polluted by stuff like the WebRSS^? page 11:38hartsook > there's a stats page for each wiki 11:39capps > so purple wiki (http://www.blueoxen.com/tools/purplewiki/) has this interesting feature where you enter a comment about each edit you make (if you choose) 11:39capps > and it makes it easy to examine most recently changed pages 11:39hartsook > Yes, I suppose we could filter that out 11:39reid[osaf] has found some new tools that will make the wikis more useful to him 11:39reid[osaf] > http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/TWiki/WebRssBase has some good information 11:39capps > the comments act as hints to tell someone the page has interesting new material) 11:40heikkit > where is the glossary, I can't find it? 11:40reid[osaf] > And it's linked-to from the sidebar under "Changes" 11:40hamstar > so in terms of priority, what kinds of information are most important to people: in terms of access 11:40sprout > so seems like one goal is to put that stuff all in one place where people can find it 11:40hamstar > 1. recent stuff that's interesting/relevant to me 11:40hamstar > 2. stuff that i'm working on...the full history of it so I have context 11:40hamstar > sprout: that's the wiki 11:41reid[osaf] > I find the Projects/Journal separation artificial and not very useful. 11:41sprout > but we have to send e-mail with the right links to "new hires" 11:41sprout > think about what that means for volunteer contributors 11:41hamstar > reid[osaf], in what way? as in you don't understand the logic behind why something is under Project and why something is under Journal? 11:41heikkit > I think the journal/projects sep is pretty clear - journal is for one off stuff and notes 11:41hamstar > sprout: irony intended 11:42sprout > oh, sorry hamstar 11:42hamstar > ;) 11:42sprout > actually, it seems to me that the way we are using the journal 11:42sprout > meeting notes 11:42sprout > and staff notes 11:42reid[osaf] > hamstar: no it just seems that the distinction is not maintained very well. I sometimes find something under one when technically it should be under the other. 11:42hamstar > ahh okay 11:42reid[osaf] > I would find things easier to find if there was just one wiki. 11:42sprout > the naming of the pages is enough to distinguish 11:42hamstar > can people think of examples of issues that fell through the cracks? 11:43hamstar > information was documented, but the right people weren' made aware of them? 11:43danS > +1 for just one wiki 11:43reid[osaf] thinks "Journals" should really be separate blogs for people, maybe using WordPress^?. 11:43reid[osaf] > I find editing a Wiki a very different mindset from posting an entry to a blog/jounral. 11:43sprout > i'd prefer that 11:43sprout > too 11:44bear > hamstar, I know a couple of times I pointed people to build related info that they didn't know about 11:44bear > both in osaf and not 11:44reid[osaf] > It's one reason I create my own "Chandler" blog on my server at home. 11:44hartsook > although it appears that search is NOT very effective, one of the ideas in keeping journal notes on the wiki was to enable a single search which would be more difficult with a wiki AND individual blogs. 11:44reid[osaf] > Actually, I would probably post more often if it was at OAF - right now I assume most people don't know about it. 11:45hamstar > ie. I didn't understand the fall out of how attribute editors worked in the Detail View...how that would affect user experience when people entered invalid data into fields...A bunch of mine, not-mine issues were muddled...they were technically documented, but not socialized to the right people 11:45capps > re journals turning into blogs -- would this be true for the use of journal as meeting notes place, or journal as scratch pad for ideas that eventually become formal wiki entries? 11:45Priss > ah ok...I have an example...maybe relevant.. 11:45Priss > I was putting stuff up in the journal.. 11:45Priss > I had difficulty finding out if that was the right place to put my notes.. 11:45sprout > capps, I'd prefer a blog to personal notes pages, and group meeting notes pages 11:46Priss > I know mikeal-fu had put stuff in 'sand box'..at one point.. 11:46sprout > you can always convert the content to a wiki page 11:46capps > sprout: I didn't understand your answer 11:46sprout > and update the blog entry to point to the wiki page 11:46capps > you prefer that group meeting notes go on a blog instead of a wiki? 11:46Priss > hamstar: is that an example of 'new hire' info falling though the cracks? 11:46sprout > yes 11:46hamstar > Priss: pretty much 11:46Priss > And currently.. 11:47sprout > hmm 11:47philippeB > hamstar: I was looking at a set of CPIA docs for a new hire and we have a tangle of new and out of date docs in there 11:47sprout > i take that back 11:47Priss > I'm trying to put meeting notes for scooby on a central place.. 11:47reid[osaf] > capps: I would still use a wiki for writing out ideas that relate to a project. The blog would be just for blabbering on about some topic, with possible links to the wiki 11:47sprout > let me think about it some more 11:47Priss > as I noticed Chandler's apps team puts it in the chandler prj page.. 11:47bear > isn't the rss feed of Journal the same as a rss feed of a blog - assuming that journal entries are all "notes" 11:47capps > reid[osaf], right so I think there are two proposals about blogs 11:47Priss > I've just been putting it in my journal, probably not the right place to put it.. 11:47Priss > but am trying to figure out the right structure.. 11:47Priss > does that make sense? 11:48capps > one is that osaf people should have osaf blogs, for writing down thoughts and whatnot (personal journal) 11:48hamstar > yup 11:48capps > and another proposal is that we use blogs for things like meeting notes 11:48hamstar > Apps team blog 11:48hartsook > we do have sidebar nav links to "personal blogs" on the group blog, but currently only point to Andi's repository blog, and sprouts personal blog. We could add more, if you have one you want linked let me know. 11:48reid[osaf] > One reason I don't "blog using Wiki" is that the wiki interface doesn't lend itself well to the task. Is there a plugin or something that might ameliorate that? 11:48sprout > well you could make an apps team blog by aggregating individual people's blogs 11:49hamstar > so if we remove blog from the proposals, what we're saying is that we want to differentiate Journal type things from wiki pages that are about a topic: Performance, i18n, Sharing 11:49capps > hartsook -- we have no organizational commitment to hosting "official" osaf blogs at the moment, for example 11:49hamstar > That's the gist of the problem...and we can think about lots of different ways to do that 11:49capps > I think an "apps team blog" is a very different thing than the "apps team website/wiki" 11:49hamstar > All we know is...the current Journal/Projects organization of the wiki isn't making that clear 11:49capps > one is focused on new dated material 11:50reid[osaf] > possibility - can the wiki subscribe to RSS feeds (of say blogs) and make that content searchable? 11:50hamstar > agreed 11:50sprout > hamstar, for me, it's just that its easier to do journal type stuff using a blog than a wiki 11:50capps > the other is a maintained high level view of information about the team 11:50capps > sprout: so all of the entries where we do 20060301 11:50reid[osaf] goes digging into the wiki plugins 11:50philippeB > the Apps team Wiki page is a sort of "Dashboard" for the Apps team activity 11:50capps > philippeB +1 11:50sprout > capps, not suggesting abolishing an apps team wiki/website, if we had an apps team blog 11:50philippeB > Can't be a blog 11:50philippeB > But the Meeting notes cam 11:51capps > yup 11:51hamstar > agreed, but we also need to consider the appropriateness of a technology solution from the angle of "people consuming" the information...searching for it, etc... 11:51philippeB > s/cam/can/ 11:51reid[osaf] > blogs feel more lightweight than wikis. 11:51capps > hamstar: maybe the blogs are better for the "regularly consumed information" like meeting notes 11:51hamstar > so can people chime in about using the osaf blog? 11:51sprout > I definitely make journal pages less than I should because it's a pain to set them up 11:51hamstar > the one we have today? 11:51capps > for someone trying to keep on top of daily activity 11:52sprout > i read it 11:52sprout > i occasionally write for it 11:52philippeB > me too, I post very rarely though 11:52reid[osaf] > I don't feel comfortable with posting to the OSAF blog - it seems too official and representing the organization as a whole. 11:52sprout > reid[osaf] +1 11:52Priss > reid[osaf]: me too.. 11:52mikeal-fu > reid[osaf]: +1 11:52capps > the osaf blog always feels like sort of a write-only black hole to me, not clear if there is an audience -- would love to hear that there is and who it is 11:52sprout > i feel that I have to measure stuff before I put it there 11:53Priss > As a new hire...it's been a huge step for me to have my 'messy' notes up on the wiki.. 11:53mikeal-fu > if all posts didn't show on the root page it wouldn't seem like that 11:53Priss > part of realizing that's the info is a bit hidden help me get over that fear... 11:53reid[osaf] found an rss reader wiki plugin -- http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/HeadlinesPlugin 11:53Priss > is that bad? 11:53Priss > :( 11:53reid[osaf] > capps: I subscribe to the OSAF blog RSS feed 11:53hamstar > seems like as an outside person though, having a centralized view of osaf staff musings, would be interesting 11:53capps > Priss -- right, there is a difference between scratchpad notes that you might want to point to someone 11:54philippeB > Nope, but you'd be surprised to see how many people read our Wiki... 11:54sprout > blog stats 11:54capps > and a daily feed that is being mailed to everyone every change you make 11:54Priss > if my notes are up on a blog...then I'm really 'concerned' about putting up my notes..taking time to clean up my sp. mistakes. 11:54sprout > 512 unique hits today 11:54philippeB > I actually blogged on the OSAF blog on precisely that subject last week... 11:54sprout > a lot of people looking for ajax calendar 11:55capps > reid[osaf] -- right, but I can communicate with you on the dev list :) 11:55hartsook > We have stats for the blog, we're getting on average about 6 thousand unique hits per day. 11:55reid[osaf] > it would be nice to be able to go to the apps page and have a sidebar that lists the 20 most recently edited apps wiki pages.. 11:55sprout > i suggest looking at some of the other open soure project group/planet blogs 11:55capps > who is reading the blog and not reading the lists? 11:55sprout > capps, that's hard to tell 11:56capps > uh, clarification 11:56sprout > pieter, not sure that 6k number is uniques 11:56capps > what is the 512 unique hits? to the blog? how does that square with 6 thousand unique hits? 11:57sprout > the 512 unique hits is for today, out of a total of 3625 hits 11:57sprout > "hits" can include things like retreiving associated images 11:57hamstar > do we get comments? 11:57sprout > so the number you really care about is unique IP's 11:57sprout > I have seen one comment on a post that I wrote, but I can't remember if there have been others 11:58mde > It's 'hits' versus 'visits.' 11:58mde > We need to know how many visitors. 11:58sprout > there have definitely been comments 11:58hartsook > total is 20 11:58sprout > the basic wordpress stats pages doesn't show visitors 11:58capps > there have been a few comments, but they are rare 11:59sprout > it shows hits, and in some cases it shows "uniques" 11:59bear > comments happen a lot for certain pages - like the ajax libraries page 11:59bear > and even some of the build pages 11:59sprout > bear, i think we are talking about blog comments 11:59bear > I've seen some pages get a comment a week 11:59bear > oops :) 11:59sprout > http://wp.osafoundation.org/comments/rss2 is the recent blog comments 12:00hartsook > oops, looks like we've reached the end of the hour. 12:00hartsook > Anyone want to say anything in closing? 12:00sprout > hamstar? 12:00hamstar > hi 12:00hamstar > so thank you everybody for participating 12:01hamstar > as usual we didn't cover everything, but this is a good amount of feedback to start with 12:01bear > ~close 12:01soup > The clock has struck noon Pacific Time, so the Official OSAF Office Hours time is up. 12:01soup > 12:01sprout > yes, thanks! 12:01soup > Even though today's session is officially over, it doesn't mean the conversation is required to end right away. 12:01soup > You are certainly welcome to continue hanging out and talking here, but many of the West Coast people will probably disappear to go to lunch soon. 12:01soup > 12:01soup > The IRC logs for the office hour sessions are all available on-line; today's is at: 12:01soup > http://wiki.osafoundation.org/script/getIrcTranscript.cgi?channel=osaf&date=20060315&startTime=1100&endTime=1205 12:01soup > 12:01soup > Thank you for joining us! 12:01reid[osaf] > is there a way to get a full, untruncated RSS feed for the wikis? 12:01hamstar > next steps include: documenting the anecdotes people have supplied and trying to come up with a framework for prioritizing which problems we tackle first! 12:02sprout > yep